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  • Demjanjuk - Defendant in trial

    Defendant in transcripts08.html

    (Jerusalem, Feb. 16, 1987 - Apr. 24, 1988)
    SUMMARY of English-language TRANSCRIPTS

    John Demjanjuk; T006828 - 7705; 1987/07/27 - /08/05; Vols. 11, 12 and 13
    [1987/07/27, Mon.; T006828, Vol. 11; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T006828f - Direct examination of Demjanjuk by Gill
    - never at Treblinka, Sobibor or Trawniki
    - 67 years old, married to Vera, children [3], light blue eyes, 1.82 m high, born April 3, 1920, village near Vinnytsia
    - parents, Nikolai and Oren, were invalids
    - started school (atheist) at 8 years old and went for 9 years, only completed 4 grades because of having to work at home
    - worked as tractor driver until called to Red Army in 1940
    - became member of Komsomol in 1938
    - Famine of 1932-33, food confiscated, sold farm for 800 rubles and went to sister near Moscow but could not get work, so came back
    - Red Army call up in 1940, but sent home because he didn't have underwear, called up again in 1941. Was sent to Bessarabia to Belsec, trained in artillery. After war started [June 22, 1941] was sent to River Prut, retreated and wounded in back by German artillery shell at Dnieper River; resulted in scar. (But the scar as shown in tav/74 [174?] was a result of 1948 operation in Regensburg, Germany to remove shrapnel from 1941.) After recovery, he was eventually sent to Kerch in winter of 1942.
    - captured after heavy rain and heavy shelling in Crimea; very hot and grass was growing.
    - worked narrowing gauge of railway tracks for 6 to 8 weeks
    - eventually transferred to Rovno for week or two and sent to Chelm in autumn
    - never in Treblinka, Trawniki or Sobibor
    - worked all winter on installing railway ties; many Jewish prisoners and kapo. [Krakowsky had testified that all Jewish POWs had been killed.] Many Jews in Vlasov's Army.
    - In spring and summer of 1943, they were digging turf; in winter of 1943-44 unloading trains; trucks transporting POWs.
    - In spring of 1944 about 350-400 Ukrainians were selected by Germans, sent to new barracks, issued old clean Italian uniforms and sent to Graz.

    T006886 - "We passed medical exams and our blood groups were typed." (i.e. tattoo of tav/75)
    - Began removing the tattoo in Heuberg, Austria and Neustadt when he found out the German SS division wore the same tattoo. (Most of the rest of his unit did the same.)
    - Not issued arms; attached to unit guarding generals in Heuberg (Soviet Liberation Army)
    - Just before war ended went in two cars to Salzburg, where General Melishkin took one car
    - May 9, 1945, went to Bischophofen with many Vlasov Army personnel, transferred by Americans to near Munich, billeted with German farmers for 2 months, then taken to Landshut

    **** END of 1987/07/27 Demjanjuk testimony in Vol. 11 ****

    John Demjanjuk; T006911 - 7049; 1987/07/28; Vol.11
    [1987/07/28, Tue.; T006911, Vol. 11; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T006911f - Demjanjuk was never promoted in Vlasov's Army; simple soldier

    T006913f - Tattoo scar is no longer visible; Demjanjuk told Cleveland (1978?) prosecutors about it during third questioning period.
    - took driver's course, got license, driver for American Army for 2.5 to 3 years in Landshut
    - in Regensburg for 2 years, Ulm for 6 months, Bad Rachinow, Fink, Stuttgart, tuberculosis diagnosed, immigrated to U.S. in 1952
    - met Vera in Landshut and married in 1947 , Lydia born in Landshut in 1950
    - in U.S. worked on farm in Decatur, Indiana; Ford Motors in Bookpark, Ohio (Cleveland) for 30 years
    - lived in Parma, then Seven Hills
    - when grandchild was born [via Lydia], Demjanjuk was in Springfield, Missouri, prison hospital

    T006920 - except for Americanizing Ivan to John, never changed last name
    - Orthodox religion, St. Vladimir's church
    - during past 10 year ordeal, Demjanjuk never tried to leave country, hide, etc.

    T006923 - in Germany, he had claimed that between 1937 and 1943, he had been places such as Sobibor, Pilau, Danzig because he wanted to avoid repatriation to Soviet Union. Advised by UNRRA deputy director Pastoyi [Distoyev?] not to admit being a Soviet citizen. Randomly found and picked Sobibor from map.

    T006925 - Levin: "You mentioned Sombor [Sambir] and on the application it says Sobibor. [Nishnic said that Demjanjuk said Sambir but the UNRRA official wrote Sobibor.]

    T006926 - Levin: [tav/32] "... you say you wanted to write Sombor but somebody put in Sobibor."
    T006927 - Demjanjuk: "Of course, this application form came to the United States and after five years when we put in an application for US citizenship, we were in a position to rectify the inaccurate details on that earlier application form. And we were promised that nobody would be punished for the correction of these details and this is what I said and you can see for yourself, it says that I was born in Dubne Makharense." [Watkin(?) Amendment was adopted for this.]

    T006932 - Vera visited the Soviet Union twice and found out his mother was alive. He corresponded with his mother.
    T006938 - Gill: Demjanjuk has only a limited understanding of English. "He asked the police officers on numerous occasions if they wouldn't in fact talk to him in Ukrainian and they told him that he would not be permitted to talk in Ukrainian and they continued to talk to him in English only and this was throughout the interrogation for 9 months."

    T006941 - Gill: Ish Shalom has claimed (erroneously) that Demjanjuk confessed to being in Flossenburg
    T006945f - 3 or 4 interrogators + interpreter Sobelman (who did not interpret)
    T006949 - Arye Kaplan pretended to be warder and friend; gave Demjanjuk's letters to censor rather than mailing them as promised.

    T006954 - Interrogators showed him copy of Trawniki ID card, tav/149. (He was never shown original in the U.S.)
    T006955 - received Italian uniform in Chelm, not Graz.
    T006961 - Demjanjuk: "..., they kept pressuring me to have everything conducted in English."
    T006964 - no attorney present during questioning (as in U.S.)
    T006968 - Shaked: Ish Shalom told Demjanjuk that it was not the custom to have a lawyer present during questioning.

    T006974 - Demjanjuk concludes by stating that he was not in Treblinka, Sobibor or Trawniki.

    **** END direct examination by Gill **** start cross examination by Blatman and Shaked ****

    T006976f - Demjanjuk was interviewed by U.S. Immigration authorities in 1978, 1980 and in court in 1981 for denaturalization and in 1984 for deportation.

    T006979 - Sheftel demands that Blatman present the relevant documents to Mr. Demjanjuk before asking questions.

    T006981f - Questioning on removal of tattoo. Tattooed in Graz, started removal in Heuberg and completed in Landshut.

    T006990 - Demjanjuk: "Not just I, all of us removed the tattoo because we were not SS."
    T006993 - Demjanjuk: "May it please your Honor, we in Vlasov's Army, when we found out such a tattoo was customary for SS men, we didn't want it and that's why we acted as we did."

    T006994 - MISSING
    T007002f - 350-370 people transferred from Chelm to Graz in 4 railway cars; then 300-310 people from Graz to Heuberg in 3 railway cars.

    T007012f - long questioning as to how long he was in Graz and Heuberg
    - Vlasov's Army; Ukrainian Division
    - [Did he arrive in Heuberg in spring of 1944 or 1945?] - [DISCREPANCIES]

    T007049 - **** END of 1987/07/28 testimony and of Vol. 11 ****

    John Demjanjuk; T007050 - 7185; 1987/07/29; Vol.12
    [1987/07/29, Wed.; T007050, Vol. 12; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T007050f - Questioning re Vlasov's Army in Heuberg
    T007059 - Ukrainians, Russians, White Russians came from Graz
    T007062 - Captain Dubowitch (Dubowetz) of Vlasov's Army lives in New York; Demjanjuk would like him to testify. Demjanjuk saw him in New York in 1955 or 1956; talked to him on the phone in 1977, but he refused to testify on Demjanjuk's behalf.

    T007068f - Tractor driver for 1.5 years before being recruited into Red Army in 1941. Was in city of Belzec when war broke out, fought near Prut River and constantly retreated, wounded near Dnieper River, transferred to hospital in Melitopol, Verjansh, Stalino, Tbilisi.

    T007076f - After recovery he was sent to Kerch, captured by Germans in spring of 1942.
    - worked for 4 to 8 weeks on railway, then 5 days in Perikop, before being sent to Rovno.

    T007087 - No selecting out of communists, commissars, officers, Jews from amongst prisoners.
    T007099f - In U.S., Demjanjuk had testified that he had been captured in late 1942 or early 1943.
    - [Tav/198 = Feb. 7, 1984, deportation hearing before Judge Angelini.]

    T007117f - long discussion as to when Germans recorded his name [in Chelm], whether there were any barracks or not in Chelm, when he arrived, etc.

    T001724f - barracks wasn't heated in winter; people transferred; digging peat all winter 2.5 km away; 60-65 people for 10 months.
    - in U.S. testimony, Demjanjuk did not mention that he had been digging peat.

    T007153 - Blatman suggests that Demjanjuk was in Chelm only a very short period of time; whereas Demjanjuk insists it was at least 10 to 18 months.

    T007158 - Demjanjuk: "It is impossible to forget, just as it is impossible to forgive what was done to me over the past 10 years."

    T007159 - Blatman questions Demjanjuk's reactions to indictment of 1977.
    T007161f - Blatman refers to Demjanjuk testimony before notary Chipolone on April 20, 1978 = tav/190
    - refers to Runivor [Rovno] camp: "I was only in two camps there." [Rovno and Chelm]
    - forgot Chelm in U.S. and Blatman makes a big thing of it.
    - [Fight between Demjanjuk and Blatman.]

    T007169 - Demjanjuk: "I said I was in two camps, you read this out to me, that is correct and I simply forgot."

    T007181 - Tav/193 = Demjanjuk testimony of Feb. 20, 1980, page 71

    John Demjanjuk; T007186 - 7322; 1987/07/30; Vol.12
    [1987/07/30, Thu.; T007186, Vol. 12; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T007186f - Blatman refers to questioning in Chelm [Cholm, as corrected by Levin] and back to Zipoloni [Chipolone?]

    T007203 - Demjanjuk: "..., but I do not agree when Zipoloni who threw me and my daughter out of his office."
    - Tav/191 = questionnaire of Dec. 3, 1979

    T007211 - Tav/182 = charge sheet of August 25, 1977
    - Tav/195 = March 4, 1981, p1091-1092 of testimony before Battisti,
    in which Demjanjuk did not mention digging peat in Chelm.

    T007221 - Blatman claims that Demjanjuk first mentioned digging peat for the first time in Israel; whereas Demjanjuk maintains that he first mentioned it in Cleveland.

    T007222 - Shaked takes over the cross examination of Demjanjuk.
    T007224 - Demjanjuk arrived in U.S. on the General DeHun on Feb. 9, 1952; farm in Indiana; Cleveland July 1952

    T007236 - Vera Demjanjuk visited the Soviet Union in 1964 and 1966.
    T007237 - Demjanjuk: "I only know that my mother went and told them [KGB] , informed them that their son was alive."
    - probably in 1964, although in U.S. he said it was in 1953.

    T007239 - Tav/197 = testimony in Cleveland, page 197.
    - sent package in 1953 or 1954 to family in Ukraine.

    T007255 - Tav/196a = "Application for suspension of deportation"
    - Tav/196b = afraid he would be assassinated if outside U.S.

    T007261 - After receiving indictment Aug. 25, 1977 (tav/182?), Demjanjuk wrote his sister's daughter to go to the authorities and get a birth certificate. This, she tried to do but they refused.

    T007265 - Demjanjuk began to feel afraid after Zoobzukov(?) was assassinated by a bomb in the U.S. after being acquitted.

    T007269 - Demjanjuk: "Actually, they wanted to take me in a dishonest way to Germany before the trial began." [???Did the OSI offer to drop the charges if he left the United States???]

    T007273 - tav/198 = Feb. 7, 1984 - photos of 2 friends from Red Army
    - tav/40a and tav/40b = photos of Ivan and Petro
    - tav/213 = photocopy of 3 photographs of Demjanjuk and 2 friends

    T007284 - Dubne Makarense is in Samogorodok (earlier Kaziatin) district and not in Zaporizhia district as stated in tav/149.

    T007286 - Demjanjuk's eyes are blue and not gray as stated in tav/149.
    - tav/22g = application for visa to U.S. in 1951, where clerk wrote eyes as gray.
    - tav/146 = 1952 U.S. form stating eyes are gray.

    T007289 - long discussion as to color of hair - blond or dark blond
    - tav/22g states hair was brown in 1951.
    - tav/21b = driver's license in Germany says blond. [tav/149 says dark blond.]

    T007296f - long discussion as to Demjanjuk's height - 1.80 m (= 5'10.4") in 1987 and 1.82 m in 1941 in Red Army.
    - Shaked: Shrank about 2", therefore must have been 1.85 m in 1941.

    T007307f - tav/146 (1952) says height was 6'1" (= 185.4 cm)
    - tav/200 = June 8, 1951 height = 1.88 m (= 6'2") [???]

    T007308f - Discussion of signature on tav/149. Shaked and Levin claim that tav/193 = Feb. 26, 1980 statement, "It is like I wrote my name", means that he admitted that it was his signature; whereas Demjanjuk clarifies that that was how he spelled his name.

    T007312 - Shaked asks Demjanjuk to identify third person from right in the first row in the hall, which he does as Jerome Brentar.

    T007314 - Levin asks Brentar to stand up. Shaked discusses Brentar help to Demjanjuk.
    T007314f - Back to the signature.

    T007318 - Shaked: "Imagine a situation in which you did sign it." Sheftel objects and Levin overrules. Shaked shows several examples where Demjanjuk didn't use apostrophe following the "m".

    John Demjanjuk; T007323 - 7473; 1987/08/03; Vol.12
    [1987/08/03, Mon.; T007323, Vol. 12; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T007323f - Shaked cross-examining Demjanjuk re photo on Trawniki ID card.
    T007330f - Shaked - scar on back as stated in tav/149.
    T007332f - Vera Demjanjuk visits to USSR in 1964 and 1966; was he afraid of Soviet Union, etc.

    T007343f - driving a vehicle during WWII [No]
    - after war obtained driver's license in Landshut, drove delivery truck for U.S. Army from Regensburg, issued black U.S. Army uniform.
    - Lydia born in Ulm in April 1950.

    T007346 - tav/28b = driver's license issued Feb. 10, 1947. The date Oct. 14, 1947 is also on the license.

    T007351 - Demjanjuk: "Well, it was precisely in that period [beginning in 1945] that one had to hide far more, first of all when I was in the DP camps, I spoke the truth, but then when the representatives of the Soviet Union turned up in the camps, and we were told we were going to undergo further screening, if one did not want to be repatriated. And this screening was carried out and all of us said that we were not of Soviet origin or did not hail from the Soviet Union, and this is what I did as well."

    T007353f - tav/147 = U.S. citizenship form which "was filled out by special personnel" in U.S., where Demjanjuk gave precise details because of Butkin [Watkin?] amendment. (i.e. not being penalized for not telling truth when entering U.S.)

    T007355f - tav/32 = 1948 IRO(?) form filled out for Demjanjuk states that "From May 1945 to July 1947, it says that you were a driver. You earned 100 Reichmarks and you were working for UNRRA-IRO in Landshut".
    - Demjanjuk insists that he didn't know how to drive until he finished a one-month driver's school.

    T007364 - tav/198, page 15 - implication that Demjanjuk knew how to drive before he took driving school.

    T007369 - tav/201 (Zvi Ariel interrogation Sep. 18, 1986) - implication that Demjanjuk drove truck just before being wounded.

    T007372f - tav/209 = first Fedorenko interrogation in U.S.
    - tav/211 = second(?) Fedorenko interrogation in U.S.
    - Fedorenko had been in Rovno, Chelm and finally Trawniki.

    T007375 - Shaked: "That is how people were selected for Trawniki, their drivers, technicians, and that is why you were so concerned or wary about telling us that you had been a driver."

    T007379 - Shaked refers to Otto Horn that Ivan Grozni and Schmidt were employed on trucks and engines.
    - Levin: "..., Mr. Shaked, are you reading out of the deposition taken in Berlin, or previous material?"

    T007380 - Shaked's 3 sources:
    - first source - Nun/45 = Dougherty report [which has been discredited]
    - second source - "... Otto Horn testimony in Berlin, in the presence of defense counsel, O'Connor [Sheftel refused to attend.]
    - third source - ... "video-taped Otto Horn deposition at the American Consulate in Berlin, in February 1980..." [in which Otto Horn perjured himself since he contradicted his earlier statements recorded in the initial reports of Garand and Dougherty]

    T007387f - Map of Poland - Sobibor, Sambor, Kosov, Nejare Podilsky
    T007398 - tav/214 = map of Kosov region
    T007400 - tav/32 = 1948 IRO(?) form where it states Demjanjuk was in Sobibor as a driver.
    - Shaked: "You even say for what firm. It says auto driver."
    - Demjanjuk had never even noticed this before. He maintains that he simply said that he worked on a farm.

    T007408 - Demjanjuk took 9 years to finish 4 grades of school.
    T007413 - tav/190 = interrogation with immigration official
    - tav/195 = testimony in denaturalization trial - "four grades and fifth not completed", but Demjanjuk never said that it took him 9 years.Shaked feels that Demjanjuk has some ulterior motive for this. Finally gives up.

    T007426f - long discussion re gasoline, kerosene and diesel engines
    T007436 - Dorner: "I would like to ask you something. Do you think that someone who operated the engines at the gas chambers had to have a driver's license?"

    T007442f - tav/48 = Arye Kaplan interrogation, page 2 - long discussion of what prisoners would do if Germans demanded or offered something.
    - "To refuse, nobody could refuse ..."

    T007453f - discussion of Demjanjuk statement that he couldn't have been in Treblinka because he was just skin and bones.

    T007460 - Demjanjuk: "Listen, when we were taken to Graz gradually we were given better food. It's not as if it happened in Cholm [Chelm]. In Cholm if I had eaten a whole loaf of bread, I would have died from it."

    T007462f - Things Demjanjuk reputedly said to two U.S. marshals on airplane from U.S. to Israel.
    - Demjanuk: "No, what it says there isn't right."

    T007466 - Demjanjuk doesn't think that the Ukrainian church and community would support him, if they believed he really had been in Treblinka.

    T007470 - Levin and Shaked ask Demjanjuk whether a person should be punished for something the Germans told him to do.
    - Levin: "Your moral outlook which the prosecutor wants to try and understand."

    T007472 - tav/198 = extradition proceedings in the U.S., pages 168-169, where Demjanjuk was asked whether persons who collaborated in the operation of death camps should remain citizens in residence of the U.S.
    Answer: If they were forced to do this work, then that is one thing, if they volunteered, then it is something else.

    T007473 - Demjanjuk: "If he did something further on his own initiative, then he should also be punished."

    John Demjanjuk; T007474 - 7564; 1987/08/04; Vol.12
    [1987/08/04, Tue.; T007474, Vol. 12; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T007474 - Shaked questions Demjanjuk re 1933 Famine and tav/32 [1948 IRO document]
    - Demjanjuk only realized the evil of Stalin (Soviet Union) after he reached the U.S.

    T007479 - Demjanjuk: "It was our country and only when I reached the free world did I realize what had been done to my people."

    T007482 - "Distoyev ... was probably [deputy] director of UNRRA."
    - "..., and all we knew was that we had to go through re-screening in order not to be sent back to the Soviet Union."

    T007483 - Demjanjuk: "Well, that is what I'm saying, we were simply told that if somebody did not want to be repatriated or go back to the Soviet Union, you would have to choose a place, whether it is Poland or Czechoslovakia or anywhere else, and this is precisely what I did."

    T007488 - Jerome Brentar was an IRO official at a DP camp.
    T007490 - "I was responsible for screening refugees, displaced persons, persecutees, within the mandate of the IRO." - Brentar testimony in U.S.

    T007492 - Demjanjuk: "I personally did not fill in the forms, but the forms were filled in for us by officials."

    T007493 - Levin: "Well, you have a way of evading questions, but it won't help you. If we want to get an answer from you we'll get it, even if it takes longer."

    T007509 - Shaked: "I think that the situation or the boot rather is on the other foot, I am asking you a very simple straightforward question, and you are trying to wheedle out of it, but I have patience if you want to sit here another week, if the bench will let us, we will sit here for another week, until you tell the truth. You are not going to leave this courtroom telling lies."

    T007510 - Demjanjuk: "..., and the official who filled in the forms for us, he knew in advance that we would not be telling the whole truth."

    T007511f - On tav/32, why not put down Rovno and Cholm rather than Sobibor (or Sambor)?
    - Answer: Because these were POW camps.
    - How was Sobibor rather than Sambor written down?

    T007522 - Demjanjuk: "He [stranger, a person like me] had one [a map], we looked at it and he said that this is the best place [Sambor], because that's where there is the highest concentrations of Ukrainians."
    - On the same day they filled out the forms, tav/32; this person also helped others, in a big room just before they went into a smaller room, where the clerks were seated.

    T007527 - Demjanjuk also mentioned Pilow [Pilau] and Danzig on some form.
    T007528 - In his initial registration with UNRRA in 1945 in Landshut, Demjanjuk had stated that he had been a POW at Rovno and Chelm.

    T007530 - tav/32 = IRO form of March 3, 1948 in Regensburg. (Another date of March 22, 1948, appears on the form also, and a seal of March 19, 1948. Another date was added in 1950 when Lydia was born.)

    T007532 - "..., and all I know is that the initial screening took place in Landshut, and the re-screening also took place in Landshut, ..."
    - [not Regensburg as the prosecution contends]
    [Presumably, he had not been questioned about this in the U.S. trials at all.]

    T007536 - tav/32 (March 3, 1948, Regensburg) and tav/22 (visa application of 1951-52 with photo) were the only two forms used in the U.S.
    - Demjanjuk: "Well, the other forms, the forms from Landshut, where are all the other forms that I had filled in while I was living in Landshut?" ... "where are all the questionnaires, the forms, all the notes, that were taken down in Landshut?"
    - Shaked: "You mean the forms on which you told the truth in Landshut."

    T007543 - Levin finally concludes that where tav/32 was filled out (Regensburg or Landshut) is not important --- waste of time.

    T007559 - On tav/32, it says that at Sobibor he was a driver for Firma Auto at 40 zloties.

    T007562 - Shaked recites Fedorenko history as being similar to Demjanjuk.

    John Demjanjuk; T007565 - 7655; 1987/08/05 a.m.; Vol.12
    [1987/08/05, Wed.; T007565, Vol. 12; Demjanjuk]
    [Top] [1987/07/27] [1987/07/28] [1987/07/29] [1987/07/30] [1987/08/03] [1987/08/04] [1987/08/05] [Bottom]

    T007565 - MISSING
    T007566 - Discussion as to why Pilow [Pilau], Germany was entered in tav/32. Then Munchen [Munich], Danzig [Gdansk].

    T007578 - tav/215 = map from a book which gives camps near Stutthoff.
    T007591 - Mr. Hendrickson signed visa application form tav/22.
    T007592 - Shaked: "..., forcible repatriation took place in 1945 and that there were still a few isolated cases, as long as May 1946, ..."

    T007594 - Demjanjuk: "All I know [is] that forcible repatriation went on throughout and even when Mrs.. Roosevelt visited the camps and even our camp at Landshut and returned to the United States, then the forcible repatriation stopped.
    - Discussion whether Demjanjuk actually witnessed forcible repatriation.

    T007616 - Got married Sept. 01, 1947 in Regensburg.
    T007621 - Shaked concludes his cross-examination by calling Mr. Demjanjuk a liar.
    T007622 - Demjanjuk responds that it is the Jewish eyewitnesses who are liars.

    T007623f - Re-direct examination by Gill
    - Demjanjuk speaks and writes only Ukrainian and Russian; during WWII he didn't know any German or English

    T007628 - In filling out the form tav/32 (IRO 1948), the clerk was an American, but there was an interpreter next to him.
    - [i.e. there were 3 people involved in filling out the form.]
    - Shaked objects and Levin overrules Gill's question because "the supposition that the forms were filled in inaccurately because of interpretation was never raised."

    T007631f - Gill tries to ask a lot of questions - language used, possibility of Vera being arrested in USSR, color of eyes, color of hair, weight, height (Why did it vary from 1.80 to 1.88 m?), traitor status.

    T007636 - Demjanjuk: "I am not a traitor to Ukraine, but I am a traitor to the Soviet Union.
    - Shaked and Levin continually object.

    T007643 - Demjanjuk: "All I know is that Vlasov's Army was different because anyone who was in the Red Army could be in it. And the Ukrainian Army was founded only for Ukrainians ..."

    T007644f - Questions re driver's license, driving, getting paid, repairing tractors, Komsomol card, ...
    T007652 - The Germans first registered Demjanjuk in Chelm.

    **** END of morning session 1987/08/05 and END of Vol. 12 ****

    John Demjanjuk; T007656 - 7705; 1987/08/05 p.m.; Vol.13
    [1987/08/05, Wed. p.m.; T007656, Vol. 13; Demjanjuk]

    T007656 - MISSING
    T007657 - Otto Horn testimony in Berlin
    - Demjanjuk: "Otto Horn did not know me nor could he know me from Treblinka because I've never been to Treblinka. Secondly, I saw in the film in the U.S. how Otto Horn gave his evidence. He did not even recognize the friends with whom he had gone to Treblinka."

    T007658 - Feodor Fedorenko testified that he neither saw nor heard of Demjanjuk in Treblinka. Interviewed by both sides in Philadelphia. Fedorenko didn't have a blood tattoo.

    T007664 - Demjanjuk didn't know anything about peat bogs near Trawniki.
    - Was on control committee at St. Vladimir's Church in Cleveland, but only verified checks.

    T007665f - How did Demjanjuk feel to initial Ivan the Terrible charges?
    - Answer: Tremendous shock

    T007669f - Signature on Trawniki ID card, tav/149, is not Mr. Demjanjuk's.

    T007671f - **** Judges questioning Demjanjuk. ****

    T007671f - Dorner re the two Landshut registrations. Pilau and Danzig the first time, Sobibor second time.
    - said Pilau again in the second form, tav/32.

    T007677 - Dorner: "I gathered from you that it is possible that you didn't say anything about Sobibor, but in fact you said Sambor and the official inadvertently wrote Sobibor."

    T007679f - Dorner: "Then how did you know in 1950 [for tav/22] what it said in questionnaire, tav/32 [from 1948]?"
    - Demjanjuk: "Because very often we were called in and asked various questions about particulars. It wasn't a secret. It's not as though you hand over the questionnaire and never see [it] again in your life."
    - Dorner: "They'd show you the questionnaire?"
    - Demjanjuk: "Of course I saw it."

    T007681f - Tal re tav/47, 1958 citizenship application
    - Who typed in the answers for the questionnaire?
    - Visible distinctive marks: "Operation scar on back" has been crossed out in red ink and on top it says "Scar on left wrist."
    - Demjanjuk can't explain this.

    T007685f - Tal re Sambor - Sobibor - person who showed him the map.
    - Demjanjuk: "No, no, no. He held it in his hand and others would come up to him whenever anybody needed any assistance and he would help them."

    T007688 - Komsomol in 1939; picture taken when he was in Komsomol or Red Army.
    T007691f - Levin re repatriation, Vlasov's Army, etc.
    T007694 - First time in filling out form in Landshut, he had to conceal that he had been in Vlasov's Army and the second time (when the Soviets came into the camp) he had to hide everything.

    T007697 - Levin: "Why did you have to lie, where you could have just as well told the truth, if in 1951, you wanted to immigrate to the U.S.? ... Why didn't you simply tell the American authorities the truth?"
    - Demjanjuk: "Because at the time it was necessary to be consistent with what the other applications said in order to speed up the process."

    T007699 - Demjanjuk: "I was in Rovno, Chelm, Graz and Heuberg ..."
    T007705 - END of Demjanjuk testimony 1987/08/05

    W.Z. Summary: Despite the extraordinary viciousness and antipathy of the prosecution and judges, Demjanjuk survived the ordeal relatively unscathed by simply sticking to his story and repeating that he had never been at Treblinka, Trawniki or Sobibor.

    (1) Demjanjuk maintained that after being captured by the Germans in Crimea in spring 1942, he worked on railways for 4 to 8 weeks, and then was successively transferred to Rovno (couple of weeks), Chelm (10 to 18 months), Graz and Heuberg (where he was associated with Vlasov's Army) until the end of WWII.

    (2) The Israeli prosecution and judges tried to establish that after capture, he was quickly transferred to Rovno, then Chelm, from where he was drafted to and trained in Trawniki, such that by July 19, 1942, he had assumed the role of Ivan Grozni in Treblinka.

    (3) The outbursts of Goldman, Levin and Shaked clearly indicate the frustration of the Israeli prosecution in the face of Demjanjuk's intransigence. The judges were clearly biased against Mr. Demjanjuk. They acted as part of the prosecution, overruled most of the objections of the defense and upheld most of the objections of the prosecution.

    (4) The high pressure Israeli interrogation methods were also clearly revealed. Demjanjuk complained bitterly about being forced to speak English rather than Ukrainian and being faced with 4 or 5 interrogators at each session.

    (5) We note that the judges and Shaked were very persistent in claiming that Demjanjuk knew how to drive during the war; whereas Demjanjuk maintained that he didn't drive until he took a driver's course in Landshut after the war. Finally in exasperation, judge Dorner asked if having a driver's license was a prerequisite to operating the gas chambers.

    (6) Of particular interest and relevance was the discussion associated with the 1948 IRO questionnaire (tav/32) which illustrated the very confusing state in the DP camps after the war:

    (a) Demjanjuk underwent two screenings in Landshut. During the first screening, Demjanjuk told the truth, except that he concealed that he was associated with Vlasov's Army. However, when the Soviet authorities showed up at the DP camp to implement forcible repatriation (of people who had been citizens of the Soviet Union prior to Sept. 1, 1941), they underwent a second screening (presaumably with the full connivance of the U.S. and UNRRA authorities), during which Demjanjuk gave false data to conceal his past. Most of this data was entered in Mr. Demjanjuk's visa application to immigrate to the United States.

    (b) The U.S. authorities must have been aware of these "white lies", because by the time Mr. and Mrs. Demjanjuk applied for their citizenship in 1958, the Watkin(?) Amendment had been passed absolving anyone who had not told the full truth during their initial visa application. Consequently, Mr. Demjanjuk filled out his citizenship application form truthfully.

    (c) The initial organization responsible for the plight of refugees in war torn Europe was the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency (UNRRA), which was later replaced by the International Relief Organization (IRO). UNRRA, especially, was reputed to be very heavily infiltrated with Communist sympathizers and Soviet agents who favored forcible repatriation.

    In my opinion, the involvement of these two organizations in the DP camps and the repatriation and immigration process should be examined very carefully. A good place to start would be with Gita Sereny, a charter member of the Holocaust Industry and advisor to the Israeli prosecution, who took a position with UNRRA three months before the end of WWII.

    **** END of Demjanjuk testimony 1987/08/05, in trial and in Vol. 13 ****

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